The ammunition industry continues to be the “bottleneck” of the Ukrainian defense-industrial complex. In fact, under the USSR in Ukraine there were only some fragments and elements of a unified system of production of ammunition, and in the fourth year of de facto wartime Ukraine enters, still relying on the Soviet resource. On this background, especially rare, mostly private, production, which, in the absence of state support, tend to turn their own situation into their own hands, and have already achieved some successes in this field. One such enterprise is the Tashkent Corporation, whose president, Valery Pavlyukov, agreed to answer the agency’s questions.
– Valery Vasilyevich, what, in your opinion, today there are problems in the ammunition industry? And how do you see the solution to these problems?
-First of all, it should be noted that ammunition is an element that provides the basic function of the weapon, namely: the destruction of the equipment and the living force of the enemy and all other types of weapons provide the delivery of an ammunition to the target or protection against enemy munitions. It should be emphasized that the ammunition industry is one of the most resource-intensive industries. It requires significant costs for the creation of fixed assets – special buildings, specially designed premises, which ensure the safety of work. Necessary large areas, with many restrictions on location. Because of this, even a lot of questions arise at the site selection stage. For example, recently in one of the districts we, with the head of the administration, could not find a suitable territory for the placement of small production. At the same time, the criteria for which restrictions are established are not false and not artificial – it is about the safety of the population, provided by certain distances from housing and infrastructure (railways, highways, power lines and many others). A separate factor complicating the choice of the site in recent years The fears caused by the state of emergency in the military arsenals – because of the choice of territory, it is necessary to hold public hearings. A very serious problem is the shortage of personnel: in the Soviet era, the training of profile personnel was carried out only in four cities – Kuybyshev, Kazan, Moscow and Leningrad, and those who are currently training specialists at the Shostkin Technological Institute are people who have at least 25-30 years of education, and now they pass on to the students the knowledge they received at that time. Because there are no textbooks and there was no – because of secrecy, the training was based on lectures, notes, and all Soviet branch institutes were also concentrated in Russia. Now in Ukraine there is nothing besides Shostkin GNIIHP. At the dawn of Ukrainian statehood, this institute was defined as the main institution for ammunition, it is engaged in the development of technologies, the production of prototypes and small series of products – as such, the financing of GNIIHP has long been discontinued, and resources come from orders from the Ministry of Defense and private companies. This is a serious defect – such an institution, the only one of its kind, should receive appropriate funding from the state. When in the early 90’s I headed the Defense Forces (Valery Pavlyukov from 1992 to 1995 served as Deputy Minister of Defense Industry and Machinery, and headed the Defense Industrial Complex of Ukraine – “OPK”), and realizing that there was no ammunition industry in Ukraine – there was only the production of individual elements (we did not have developers of fuses, developers of capsule bushes, sleeves), then we decided to create a center for the development – or at least the copying – of fuses. Housing money was allocated for specialists invited from Russia to create a human skeleton. However, after my departure, the already purchased housing was given to other people, specialists were not invited, and the project ended in nothing.
At the moment, we have the Impulse plant, where the firing chain is manufactured, but the fire-chain without mechanics does not work. That’s why we have a serious problem with fuses. Shostkinsky Zirka plant, capable of producing gunpowder, all these years was engaged only in utilization. There is also a chemical plant in Pavlohrad, where it is possible to set up engines for rockets, jets, equipment for head parts and shells. These productions are pearls that need to be carefully stored. This is especially true of the Impulse. There were only four such enterprises in the USSR. In Russia, too, there was a decline, only two remained, the rest closed. In general, the decline of the ammunition industry is, in many respects, a global problem, caused by the protracted peace period after the Cold War. I know a number of factories in Eastern Europe, destroyed due to lack of orders. Now everyone rushed to create production of ammunition, their elements, gunpowder and so on … Even to us, in Ukraine, now they are turning from the countries of the former social bloc for help. In my opinion, it is a sin not to use it and at the expense of these orders to develop documentation for Ukraine. It is necessary to create production in Ukraine, for the state account, for the resources of private enterprises, or as part of the development of public-private partnerships.
– In your opinion, the production of various types of ammunition – infantry, artillery, and so on – should be separate?
– There is such a concept as the stability of production. If we organize everything within the framework of one complex, then everything will end there – it will suffice to strike one, and nothing will be left of the plant. Therefore, in the whole world of production, they try to duplicate and not group them on the same site in order to guarantee a guaranteed production in all situations. Even if we already have production somewhere, we need to create a duplicate, separate orders between them, and provide state support. We are now faced with a situation when Ukraine does not sell gunpowder and much more. Even banks are blocking transfers if money goes for the purchase of equipment for the production of defense products! All war is war.
– How much, in your opinion, Ukraine can survive on old stocks – in conditions where there is practically no production, and with problems with purchases abroad?
– This is known only to the Ministry of Defense. I can say that the creation of production of various types of ammunition will require two to four years of hard work. Any production. Because we are compelled to develop documentation, use of by-pass technologies. To create a direct serial production, as in the USSR, often there is no banal equipment – which was produced in one-two countries of the world and funding. To boost the creation of an ammunition industry, one should take an example from some of the former socialist countries – Bulgaria, to some extent Poland. For example, the Bulgarians immediately went along the market path. They also had a good ammunition and weaponry at socialism. The most powerful production was in Romania – in comparison with Ukraine, Bulgaria and Poland – the most powerful. The isolation in which the country was under Ceausescu was said. But after the collapse of socialism, the situation has developed differently – production in Bulgaria is developing, and in Romania everything has stopped: the production of explosives, gunpowder, and fuses has been lost. Somewhat facilitate the situation of NATO and the EU, within which these countries can freely buy components and exchange technology. For Ukraine, this path is closed. All the matter is in the restrictions that in Romania, like Ukraine, established the state for private producers. At the same time in Bulgaria almost all the former military-industrial complex was privatized. Enterprises operate independently on licenses, have the opportunity to export their products, import components and the market provides them with development.
– Are they now producing ammunition of the Soviet, or NATO, model?
– Soviet mainly, but begin to master NATO standards.
– What, in your opinion, an industrialist, looks like a hierarchy of Ukraine’s needs in ammunition? What should be a priority? Artillery ammunition, artillery …
– This approach is not true. Each type of ammunition provides combat operations in its niche, its level of tasks. It would be absurd to assert that the most important ammunition or vice versa are artillery shells. Each type of army task is solved by a wide range of types of weapons. Depending on the tasks, the need for ammunition types varies. The ATO currently has more consumption of small and medium-sized ammunition and ammunition.
– That is, at creation of production it is necessary to start with small calibers.
– Applied to ATO – Yes. Because the greatest expense at the front is currently in the form of rifle ammunition and artillery medium caliber. One more point: the existence of restrictions on the use of ammunition caliber 100 mm and above. Similar restrictions were stipulated by the CFE Treaty, the same caliber appears in the Minsk Agreements. But there is a simple way to bypass these prohibitions, without breaking anything: for example, in Romania, systems with a caliber of 98 mm have been developed. In Europe there is a 90 mm caliber. This caliber is used not in field artillery, but in armored vehicles. For clarity – 30 mm ammunition at our BTR carries 50 gr. explosives And in 90 mm ammunition – from 900 gr. up to 1.3 kg of explosive. The obstacles from concrete blocks, which 30 will not do anything, can destroy 90mm ammunition. All this can have a key role in the positional war.
– In the past, you were engaged in the restoration of ammunition.
– We repaired and supplied ammunition for export as part of the repayment of Ukraine’s external debt under the Intergovernmental Agreement. In April, we committed ourselves to the Ammunition Repair Ministry. It is appropriate to recall the Cabinet of Ministers ruling of 1998, in which the “Tasco” corporation was entrusted, in the absence of production, to repair ammunition. In 1999, the joint decision of Ukrspetskeskport, the Ministry of Economy, the Ministry of Defense and the Ministry of Industrial Policy was signed, where it was written in black on white: if it is not planned to issue ammunition in Ukraine, they will not remain in Ukraine in 5-7 years, and in this connection the Corporation was appointed ” TASCO “as the general contractor for repair. Then the leadership of a number of departments changed, the Ministry of Defense closed the issue, and was engaged only in utilization for all these years. As a result, today we already have a sharp need for some types of ammunition. Last year we again offered our services to the Ministry of Defense. All the necessary documents are ready. Upon their request, we also undertook the manufacture of one type of ammunition with a caliber of 100 mm. Developed documentation, manufactured samples for experienced firing. As a result, since August last year, these products have not yet been tested.
– What kind of ammunition is it in the April decision of the Defense Ministry?
– 30, 82, 100, 120, 152 mm. We are ready to repair all these ammunition at our production base. But so far no further words from the military officials are coming.
– Are there any innovative developments in the field of ammunition?
– Of course, in this area, it’s possible to talk about everything, but I can say the following: in the press and on TV, we have seen the trials of controlled ammunition for large-range salvage systems, which, in my opinion, is a breakthrough. Excellent results have been achieved by developers of high-precision anti-tank systems. We began to create weapons at the state and non-state enterprises for the production of conventional ammunition for the existing weapons in the Army of Ukraine. We are also working in this direction and we are developing some types of ammunition for small arms, medium-caliber weapons and 100 mm ammunition, as well as ammunition for RPG-7. All this on their own, initially, for their own working capital and without any state support. All of this we can do only at the expense of profits. We also continue to build an ammunition complex from 3 separate production sites. Two sites are reserved for the mechanical production of shells of ammunition, liners and other elements, and one platform for equipment. We have a production flow of assembly of 30 mm shots from 2012. Then we released the party in 10 thousand pieces Now we supply our factories, manufacturers of weapons and armored vehicles with inert test munitions. Something is being repaired and delivered by the National Guard. I think by the end of the year we will master the release of a number of new ammunition.
– According to our information, the order of five foreign companies wish to enter the Ukrainian market of ammunition. What, in your opinion, prevents it?
– As long as we do not have conditions for independent export by the producer, all this will be only conversations and rumors – nobody will come. Because, as I said, money needs to be invested enormously, and any investor wants to be able to export everything that is not needed by our Ministry of Defense. It is necessary to understand the leaders of the country that without the possibility of free export, the cost of products for the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine will be very high, significantly exceeding the world prices. It is only possible to reduce them by increasing production volumes and free entry into the market. For today it is possible only through “Ukrspetsexport” and its “daughters” with their crazy commissions. If on sale from warehouses with a similar situation it is still possible to tolerate, then in production there is no. Today there was a situation when certain prices were formed on the world market, and when we get out on it with the extra charge of our special exporters, our products actually become uncompetitive.
– What, in your opinion, is the Ukrainian authorities to preserve a similar situation?
– Obviously, this is beneficial for somebody. But the need is not only to avoid such an export structure, but also to the need for an independent, interdepartmental military-industrial commission. Often, an MO is simply unable to formulate requirements that are optimal in terms of the “price-performance” ratio. Of course, they want everything at once and a lot and they can be understood. But when we do not even have the necessary school, and the military department needs characteristics that are not achievable even in advanced states, decades of developing ammunition, we will not succeed. Excessive financial resources, precious time will be spent, and the MO will receive a sample if it is late. A striking example is the self-loading 12.7 mm caliber rifle developed by us in 2005. Then the Ministry of Defense refused us on the grounds that the rifle was made on the basis of a machine gun barrel. But we used it only because of the availability! If they were interested in this product, we could replace the trunk with a sniper, modify the small flaws … But they said that they do not need it. In 2010, the Ministry of Defense approved the conditions for a sniper rifle caliber 12.7, and set a weight of 10 kg. But such rifles do not exist! Stores, not self-loading rifles, weigh on average 13 to 16 kg. Self-loading American rifle with a length of 720 mm weights 15 kg. Our rifle with a barrel of 900 mm weighs 16 kg. As a result, we do not have such weapons. According to information from the Internet – Russia in 2016 started a similar development. Another example – in 2005, I proposed the Ministry of Defense documentation for a cannon and ammunition of 155 mm, reaching a range of about 40 km, with the condition of payment of 7% royalty. I categorically refused, because these characteristics are supposedly not better than existing systems of 152 mm and as a result we are fighting an outdated weapon with a range of just over 25 km. That is, there is a sharp shortage of specialists in the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine who could correctly formulate requirements and criteria and there is no state body that could correct the requirements of the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine.
– You talked about creating your own production. What are the difficulties?
– The most important difficulty is the lack of qualified specialists, machine-builders, fitters. When some people say that our cheap labor is, in my opinion, a misunderstanding of the problem. The cost of labor must be estimated on the basis of the criterion of production output per 1 hryvnia of wages. And basically, this ratio is not in our favor in comparison with Western and even developing countries. We have a very expensive labor force, because of the low productivity of labor. And simply raising the minimum wage to attract somewhere skilled professionals is impossible. Nowhere, based on my many years of experience, I can argue that simply raising your salary never increased productivity. We need to restore what we have lost – teaching young people. But training on old maternity equipment will not succeed, young people do not go, and the terms of training – 3-5 years, which did not suit, neither youth nor production. It is necessary to introduce new, progressive, intelligent equipment. But the cost of it is not at times, but by an order of magnitude higher than the previous one. And here comes the question of finance and a closed circle. We need investments that will not be without the freedom to sell. There is no freedom to sell – there is no market cost of production and no investment. As a partial solution to the issue to the Government as soon as possible, consideration should be given to the exemption from taxes of that part of the profits that goes into the development of production. This is done in all developed countries, and this is necessary in Ukraine, and not only for the creation of an ammunition industry, but also for the restoration of former positions in other branches of industry.
Interviewed by Dmitry Kozlov
Information agency “Defense and industrial courier”
Direct link to the article:
В. ПАВЛЮКОВ: «ПОКА НЕ БУДЕТ УСЛОВИЙ ДЛЯ САМОСТОЯТЕЛЬНОГО ЭКСПОРТА, ИНВЕСТОР В УКРАИНУ НЕ ПРИДЁТ»
